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  1. 6 points
    In, on, done. I hope I can be an asset.
  2. 4 points
    3.0 is an option. It is not my particular favoured option. I go with whatever Frank says, this is his party; I'm just here to stand in the kitchen listening to 80s music and drinking cider. What I can tell you, as I think I probably know Edge better than anyone... it is held together with string and duct tape, and if we pile any more code onto it...it is likely to fall apart. I cannot tell you how hard it has been to want to move forward with it, but having my hands tied so I can't. Edge is doing a job for a number of shopowners, but...for the future...it is best forgotten about.
  3. 4 points
    This is the last chance to "get away" with breaking osC compatibility, so let's make the most of it. We don't have to maintain compatibility with existing osC releases, so if something needs fixing (by changing it), now is the time. There are a lot of things in osC that appear to have been initially implemented in a simple manner, and more and more cruft was grafted on over time to accommodate user needs. For example, product information update was done as an edit page. Later, someone wanted to bulk-import product data, and CSV-import add-ons came along. Perhaps we should think in terms of a CSV (and/or XML) update file or data array, with the edit page merely creating this file, and the base mechanism is the file import/process. In general, a clean architecture for both importing and exporting data (such as accounting data) is needed, as well as APIs to talk to other applications in real time (e.g., your warehouse inventory system, or your brick and mortar store POS system). Perhaps the inventory could be separated out so it could be easily integrated with another system? Even as a different database than the rest of the new Cart uses! Another area that has gotten very complicated is figuring taxes -- something very modular to insert tax at the appropriate time should be considered. Prices too have gotten well beyond a single number in the product database -- coupons, membership clubs, discounts, credits, sales, etc. I don't think we can cover all the bases in a first release, but if the architecture is suitably modular, new capabilities can be plugged in later. Speaking of "plug-ins", the ideal would be for the new product to be considered as easy as Wordpress to install, configure, and upgrade. Yet, you don't want developers (function or theme) to be put in a straitjacket and severely limited in what they can do. It's a difficult balance to strike in consistency and structure, versus freedom to innovate. Beginners have constant struggles with osC, and anything we can do to streamline things for them would be much appreciated, while not putting a ball and chain on developers. We seem to forget that most store operators are not Computer Scientists or even programmers; they're not looking for a new hobby, but for a tool (appliance) to help them. For instance, why are there two configure.php files? It it really still necessary? Do we still need to separate out all the code for admin so it is in a separate directory structure? If security concerns require a separate directory under password control, can we have a single source of files (especially just one configure.php file) that somehow automagically gets copied over to the other side when updated? Besides the configure.php files, I'm thinking of all the utility files that have over time slightly diverged, and are no longer compatible between storefront and admin. Speaking of modular structure, I think it would be great to have a Cart provided as a module library that are to be plugged into an application framework. The framework provides session control, signon, theme, common utilities, etc., and the Cart library modules do the Cart work. The Cart would provide a simple framework to use out of the box, but that could be replaced by something more elaborate if so desired. We should get away from applications that think they own the entire website and won't play nice with your forum or blog or gallery application. An example would be a cart status page module (with leads to checkout) that could be plugged into your standard page header. Even if you were over in the forum, you could still see your cart with a reminder that you have stuff in it. If you logged out while in the forum, the Cart would remind you that you're about to lose your shopping trip -- do you really want to log out? That sort of thing. With the right framework, other parties could provide forums, blogs, galleries, and whatnot that just plug right in, and you can bounce between applications on the same sign-in and session. One of my biggest gripes with osC is that a product is dead and buried if it doesn't have at least an annual major release -- and osC can go many years between releases, necessitating a reintroduction to the ecommerce community! The new ownership of this osC follow-on will need to commit to frequent releases so that the world sees it as alive. Don't fall into the OpenCart trap, where almost everything has a price tag (and some authors get really wound up over people not wanting to buy their code), which discourages people from getting on board. I would have no problem with a free basic system, with payment for more deluxe or capable content. If someone wants to offer free code, great, so long as they don't steal code copyrighted by someone who is trying to make a living selling it. If someone wants to sell a deluxe version of something, great, so long as they aren't stealing someone else's code given to the community. I may or may not be able to contribute much in the way of code, but am willing to discuss architecture, and am willing to write documentation once others have provided the information. I think this is an opportunity to make something that's not just another "me too" shopping cart application.
  4. 3 points
    It's a huge step starting afresh. As one dev commented - "no shopowners, no coders, no history, no nothing". While that is entirely true, what do we have with the old system? Yes, the name (in spite of everything) still has some cachet. However what about the rest? Shopowners - there is a core group of about a dozen shopowners, the diehards, who are active in the forums. There are probably thousands, leftovers from the heydays, still running 2.2. There aren't many new adopters because of the way the official and community edition have been handled and continue to be handled. Coders - most coders have gone. There's Burt, Jack, Kymation, Henry, a couple of others. No new fresh talent. Nobody wanting to learn the software or code for it anymore. And why would they? No reason. There is no money or satisfaction in it. History - the software has an admirable history but the residual effect of that history has been waning. Something like this: If version 2.4 was released tomorrow, would anything change? I doubt it. Nobody can rely on the old system any longer because the project has been run into the ground by the owner. While he's in charge, and unreasonably holds it to ransom, things will always hang in the balance and its future will be uncertain. (Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the owner and what he's achieved in the past and the work he's produced. The problem is that he's lost my confidence and I suspect yours too) No nothing - I disagree. There is a something, and with the right attitude something could blossom from the ashes. For a start, I believe the shopowners and coders left will embrace a new incarnation and become enthusiastic about the possibilities. If you are a developer, do you feel satisfaction from the work you are putting into the old system, work that is being utilised by fewer and fewer shopowners as time goes on? I don't. I haven't touched any of my apps (apart from stuff to use on my own store) for months. I feel deflated. If you are a shopowner, do you feel that the old system can continue to meet the challenges of ecommerce into the future? I don't. I can't even change the look and feel of the store without a major overhaul. 2.3.4 is finished. Burt has done an amazing job bringing it to the point it is at now, but there's no point in continuing. To progress I believe we need to move to the 2.4.framework. However, to continue developing a community edition under the old system is impossible. This is the problem now: users download official, the non-responsive and out-of-date version, install and configure it, download and install addons for it, then customise the design etc. It's only when they have a problem they come to the forum and are told everything they did was wrong and they need to start again with some software from GitHub. Every step is designed to discourage users and waste their time. Nobody is going to take the software seriously when they find out the official version is useless and they need to download an "unofficial" version, and I say "unofficial" because the Community Edition is not supported by the owner, it is merely tolerated and kept away from the main website as much as possible. The responsive, up-to-date, working version is hidden away. Addons/apps are another mess. In my opinion an app marketplace is a must have, for 2 reasons: 1) Make it easy for shopowners to select and install/upgrade/uninstall apps; and 2) Allow developers to make money, plus provide an income to progress the core software. I also believe there should be an easy upgrade and install routine so shopowners can easily upgrade from previous versions of osC or switch from other carts (magento, shopify etc). Why would this fork be different to the ones already out there, like Zencart or CRELoaded? Firstly, I personally will be providing seed money to get the project up and running. This will ensure coders can get some reward for their efforts. Not a lot, but they won't be doing it for nothing. I have set funds aside so that the project will continue. Secondly, we will have a good base to start with in the 2.4 code, built on MVC. MVC stands for Model View Controller. The model manages the data, logic and rules of the application. The view is the output (the content on the webpage). The controller accepts input and converts it to commands for the model or view. This means that the software is far more modular and that it will be easy to add new apps, themes, and customisations. Thirdly, shopowners will be in the driver's seat. They will be the ones consulted as to which direction the software will follow and how improvements can be made to make the software easier to use. Shopowners should be focusing on selling, not hacking code. They will direct developers on how to make the software easier to use "out of the box". I know attributes/product variants is at the top of that list! Fourthly, we will have you, a passionate contributor to the new project. Someone who wants to see something not only functional but beautiful come out of their input. Someone who will contribute as much as they feel comfortable with whether it be coding, writing a manual, doing translations, testing, answering questions in the forum or even just giving advice. Fifthly, we will have a great team who will be working together to make this happen. If we can agree this is the way forward we have one experienced dev already on board. I know others will join. What I propose are the following steps: Guage reaction to this proposal; If positive, gather a team together; Hash out what we would need the final software to be and what functionality should be included; Enumerate what will be needed to be done; Create a development roadmap; and Allocate tasks to complete each step of the roadmap. What now? If you have any thoughts at all, both pro or con, or any questions, now is the time to speak. Write your thoughts below. After a week or so we'll decide if there is sufficient interest in it to continue. If not, we'll stick with the old system (but I don't think anyone would want to do that). Looking forward to your views.
  5. 3 points
    Frank - I applaud your thought on this project. I think, in general, it is a good idea. But the thing that will make it work is what will prevent It from working, in my opinion. Do you recall the attempt by Chemo and Vger to create a new shop? The idea was solid and the talent was certainly there. But the two couldn't come to an agreement on the way things should be and it fell apart. Look at the thread about the structure you mentioned and you can see the same thing in the making. The thing that kept oscommerce going was that Harald had total control over the project. Without that, this project will probably not succeed. Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to work. And while I don't have the time to devote much to it, I will help if I can. But I think you, or someone, is going to have to take complete control of it if it has any chance of succeeding. And when that is done, someone will be offended by having his "brilliant suggestion" refused and will leave the project. It will take a number of talented individuals to make this work but the strong ego's involved will be an issue.
  6. 2 points
    Any version of 2.3 is best left behind. It's a workhorse that has carried the burden for a long time and is now worn out, tired and old; and while not deserving of a trip to the knackery, it can live out its days in a pasture somewhere until it finally fades away and dies. One thing I'm looking forward to is not seeing messages which begin with "I'm still running osC 2.2 and I..."
  7. 2 points
    I am not code-savvy enough to say which framework to use for this new venture but I say it here again as I said in the other forum already the base shop should be as light as possible and additional features should be added via one-click (if possible) apps. There are things I would like to see improved though like; Catalog side: - Modern and fresh looking shop front face (responsive) - Lot better sample products Admin side: - Better looking admin interface (responsive) - Better categories and products handling. (multi -> copy, edit, link and status settings like hide or deactivate, select all checkbox(es)? ) - Better product registration interface (with more features for images, and additional extra fields if needed, block to add product options) - Better customer handling interface. (create new customers manually, merge accounts) - Better order handling interface. (edit orders!, manually create orders, batch print shipping labels and invoices) - Better sales reports (just look at some of the opensource admin interfaces) - Better product attributes! (AJAX! no more page loading after each click, more types of options and not only drop downs, stock and weight control)
  8. 2 points
    Man, I hope that being one of those who had disagreed and raised concerns earlier in this thread did not put a damper on anyone. If I did, I apologize and that was not my intention. People disagree, call each other assholes, and move on to have a beer later is totally a OK with me. I think this is not the first rodeo for most of us as we "grew" up with OSC--ya, I doubt anyone here is a millennials--and for sure if you had worked in software in a team environment, you should already be hardened by egos, power trips, and ideas being trashed and had learned how to move on. Also, in a real company, people come and people go, that's the way it is and you will just have to make sure that there's continuity. The idea of just a "love fest" was totally in my mind when I wrote my thread earlier, but as I was seriously contemplating putting time in this effort, and had seen what had happened in the other forum, that was the reason for which I had chosen to put everything on the table. I think it is awesome that this forum is keeping full steam ahead and showing no sign of wavering! You know, who am I to kidding that I will have the time to take up anything significant here after my regular responsibilities. This is a big task and it will take couple very heavy lifters' commitments to make it happen (apologize ahead again if I am offending anyone like me who's not gonna be a heavy lifter, but everyone of us here is needed to keep this community thriving so I for one is grateful). Heavy lifter I may not be, but I am eager to chip in whenever I can. @burt @frankl, since you 2 are fellow geeks, feel free to let me know when help is needed. I was an OSC shop partner, which had a great run for 8 yrs and was features on TV multiple times until Google Panda. Seeing our margin diminished due to cost I went back to consulting and now a token workabee in a L.A. big data marketing company (I now know a lot about internet marketing, machine learning, and data). I am looking forward to the chance to contribute some of the mods I had written for my shop into the community. I never did anything with them because I was waiting for the next OSC. You know, my dot com had not mess up one order for that 8 yrs because OSC was fully integrated in to an ERP with real-time data and everything other than picking was automated. I think I'd seen the big picture and I get what eCommerce operations need. Yep, for sure, we are only doing this because we luv OSC<--happy now, luv fest?!
  9. 2 points
    Sorry for being late to the party. First off, thanks to @frankl for his trust and seeing me as member worthy to be messaged. New projects like this attempt here are not new. There have been split offs before from talented people that did not agree anymore how osC was going. ZenCart, osC max, CreLoaded and a few others I guess. Even though osC is not that high up the popularity ladder all those split off or fork projects failed to reach the same member/customer base or popularity as osC has. Which tells me that even though you try to make something better then osC it is no guarantee that it will work/pay out. Like Jack mentioned people tend to disagree on certain viewpoints and then it starts to crumble. I am neither a coder, developer or shop owner, what I have done thus far was mostly for the fun and challenge. So I have nothing to gain nor to loose with osC as it stands at the moment. However I understand that the there is a need to go forward and change things can improve and grow. And that is what osC cannot offer at this time. So long story short, I am in, no matter where this goes. I'll try to help where I can and as much my understanding of new code allows.
  10. 2 points
    We should be thinking of structuring it in such a way that it plays well with others. If it's more model-driven then integrating other applications (stock, accounting etc) is much more straightforward. Orders and products, even customers, have lifecycles with key points where you might want external things to happen. A built-in (or framework based) REST server (or is that old hat already?). A wordpress plugin that installs it into a subfolder on a wp site and lets you embed stuff via the visual editor would offer a chance of infiltrating a huge market. Clearly not part of the development but made easier by the above. I think that the app/plugin/... marketplace should have both free and paid offerings, the latter being a way to keep raising a little money on an ongoing basis. Free plugins with an option to upgrade for more functionality work well. The plugin search and download should be built in, like for wordpress. Some indication of popularity (# downloads) and feedback (star rating, comments). eg a free database backup plugin could back up to your server at the allotted times (database, files, both). A paid one might do something fancy like stick it in a cloud, email it somewhere, run some db maintenance etc. No need for any of that to be core (lots of shared hosting backs up your database daily without even asking). Has anyone mentioned themes? Free and paid, visual themes for starter layouts, functional themes for types of store. Installed with one click. All the settings on one page. Absolutely no FTP, SQL or any other nonsense required for stuff whether it's in the main distribution, the marketplace or outside. Upload a zip available in admin for stuff you find outside the distro. Core features like a pseudo cron and both admin and catalog ajax handlers. Likely more like this. All this in the vision from the word go, even if they're a release or two from getting off the whiteboard.
  11. 2 points
    I'm not a native coder, but willing to throw in help for the spanish and german language support.
  12. 2 points
    This very much follow my own thoughts. As is osCommerce is unusable. As an engineer I had great fun writing some of the modules, but I am at the point where I just want to run the shop with minimal efforts. Last year I had to upgrade my osCommerce shop. And I was looking at platforms. EDGE edition was the best one for me, even if it meant lots of programming on my site. I did look at other platforms and want to avoid their problems: Shopify -- great and easy to use, but it is proprietary and you do not own your own site -- you are at mercy of Shopify Woocommerce -- it is heavy. Also, it is a shop built on top of a blogging platform. But Wordpress has some nice features that can be borrowed. Magento, Prestashop -- too expensive. Community editions are very basic, anything else you have to pay for. Yes, it is time to do something. I will be happy to participate in the project (and not for the money -- btw, thank you @frankl for offering to put money in). But may I also suggest following: (coming from my experience as a developer and my experience with osCommerce) -- Documentation first. Core must be designed VERY carefully to make sure it flexible enough and can easily be extended in the future. implementation to start only after team agrees on particular implementation and requirements are locked. Any functional changes to core are to be documented, approved and only then implemented. Design and APIs are to be clearly documented from Day 1. Rudolf
  13. 2 points
    Ok guy, let me say it - OsCommerce is dead! Don’t get me wrong - I’m actually sad, looking back, at what it was and what it could have been. I’m not going to re-hash all the posts from the past year or two - detailing all the issues... there are too many. And it will not help us move forward. Just like the Blackberry (grudgingly) - I must move on. OsC has been held together by basically one guy for 2/3 (maybe 4) years and without someone steering the ship it will not ever again rise from the ashes it’s become. Here’s to a new beginning!
  14. 1 point
    Thanks to Frank and his Libre Draw software, here is a visual representation of the organization structure we've been kicking around. In general it's a team approach with the leads from each of the five disciplines, Management, Development, Marketing, Community and Operations forming the Project Team. In addition there will be a Project Lead who is accountable to the Project Team. The role of the Project Lead is to handle day to day issues and ensure that the Project Team meets regularly and is transparent and accountable to the community. Terms of service, voting practices and other operating guidelines will need to be established but those issues can be ironed out by the Team and presented to the community for approval once the structure is agreed and the Lead positions are in place. The idea at this point is to get a workable structure in place, the roles filled and the project moving. It is not cast in stone and will no doubt be tweaked and fine tuned as we move forward. Please let us have your feedback. If the structure is generally supported we'll bring it to a vote. Otherwise it is back to the drawing board. Dan
  15. 1 point
    I can definitely fit on the shopowner's council - as I'm basically a shopowner with 15 years of experience with oscommerce. I have also experience with manufacturing process, workflow, optimization and industrial design because of my other work history so could help with all of those areas. Just let me know how can I help.
  16. 1 point
    The short answer is "no". 2.4 is an "on the fence" release designed to pacify those people who want a forward movement from the official osc, whilst also pacifying those who want to stay "close" to how 2.3 works. The longer answer: 3.0 (which was in its time, absolutely the most brilliant piece of code I had ever seen) was unreleased. I won't say why it was unreleased but it was a personal choice of HPDL to nuke it. Prestashop (which is now well regarded, has, at its core, that 3.0 code). So, 2.4, with some backports from that older 3.0 - would be a hammer. Backports such as products class, attribute variants, and so on. I'm not sure how many look at the CE (the community bootstrap code)...in that there is a cool Category_Tree class - this comes from v3. There is so much fantastic code in V3...osC could have been #1 cart easily, and I mean it would have hammered the other carts brutally.
  17. 1 point
    I suggest, appart of create a ordinogram, try to get a list of things that we need to start, put an order of priorities and let people to deceide the step(s) that can help / do, then a finish date of each task and try to complete it. So, I vote for a a new tread to list the 'essential' list of task (may be in a general form), order it by importante of according a road map and then let people to auto-assign to these steps (telling Frankl). If there are a lot of voluntiers, at least 2 people for steep involved (to avoid disruptions of the funcionality). They must be a kind of coordination, one of them will talk with Frankl and the all may communicate, if is necessary, with the rest of the 'gropus'. Later, when the team will become bigger, we will need some kind of 'master & commander' thing. If we are a few, one or two 'fields' for person (one of them not essential). The minimun, accordin Dan, 5 people... may be we will get 300 intrepid warriors to go to the TermoPHPilas... May be is not related but here yo uare my idea about our 'first meeting' (Frankl, with the microphone, telling us 'Hello, everibody!!!!') :
  18. 1 point
    this is a new project - and the conditions that lead to the behavior you mentioned will hopefully not exist (I don’t blame either of them... they did what they had to move things forward) And hopefully they (all of us) will be able to leave these feelings at OsC.
  19. 1 point
    (I can't believe I'm saying this, but ...) For this to succeed, I believe that you're going to have to run this like a business. As an investor (either of my time or money), I want to see a business plan. For example: Executive Summary Opportunity Problem Summary Solution Summary Market Summary Competition Overview Why Us? Opportunity Problem & Solution Problem Worth Solving Our Solution Target Market Competition Current Alternatives Our Advantages Execution Milestones & Metrics Milestones Table Key Metrics Company Overview Team Management Team Advisors Appendix Additional Documentation (I have intentionally left out any Financial Plan) Thoughts? Malcolm
  20. 1 point
    That will be discussed when we get to the roadmap.
  21. 1 point
    I allready sent Frank a private message. I think Franks outline kind of sums it up and I'm in favour of this move .. It is a pity if we can not move on within osc but if so .. let's fork! Nothing much to add to arguements made above .. the roadmap is essential as far as I can see .. so that roadmap needs be Perfect as much as possible! As a shopowner I have my limitations on time and resources .. But what I can do - I will do to support this initiative! Arjan
  22. 1 point
    Yeah, I stopped developing on OSCBS about 2 yrs ago, I have one shop, my original shop, that is still running on it. I don't get involve in the current OSC/OSC-CE as it is just not very inviting. I say it is an open source without the open mind. I would do all that I can to help, and I believe we all share the same frustration with the current management mind set and the SW's direction. So, let's make this an open source with the open mind. Yes, MVC is a must, and I would also say look into borrowing/utilizing framework like Lavarel/Code Igniter and etc. So we can just focus on building the eCommerce SW. Yes, it's gonna be a lot of work, but a modern framework would help it gain traction, too. @frankl, you have my full respect for leading this first step! Thanks!!! Tim
  23. 1 point
    Yes the comparison only allowed 5.... And you are probably right.... Certainly they are much, much more popular than OsC. As most of you know... I'm no coder - and know only enough to be dangerous. However, I am a (relatively) successful shop owner (I don't mean that to toot my own horn), who has opinions (some valid others not) as to why OsC (in fact almost ALL ecom platforms except Shopify - not just OsC) has failed. Forget the Community Version for a minute (consider it as the same just for this post): Ease of install - strike one - currently OsC has almost zero 1 button installs with hosts - and the ones OsC does have are to the "official" version... the community version has 0. Ease of use - strike two - currently only available in English. Leaving 80% of the worlds population without a clue.... and ANY customization requires knowledge of AT MINIMUM ftp.... CODERS.... "US" shop owners (or at least the VAST majority) have NO clue as to what they are doing when it comes "this" when they start. Most NEW potential shop owners will (have) migrate to the easiest cart to install - with lowest upfront $$$ commitment Ease of customization - strike three - I would call it "getting better".... but without; 1) platform that allows for much more granular customization without core changes 2) an app store for coders to make a profit from - so their is value in the time invested in a project such as this and 3) for shop owners to easily build their stores from "basic" to FULL function multi million dollar enterprises..... Without these three critical flaws fixed (shopify and others have them fixed.... but with a "catch" - transaction fee's beyond regular credit card and PayPal fees) , I'm afraid whatever is done here will be for not. I have listed 3 (strikes)... there are more.... I only stop here - well because in baseball you only get 3 strikes.
  24. 1 point
    Not my first choice for a way forward, but there's no longer good reason to think my first choice is available. Have you any thoughts on how this fork might grow a customer base?
  25. 1 point
    I think we all think the same, but I think if this project go forward, we must to advice oscommerce that we make another "community edition" and their are invited to colaborated, or we can create another ecommerce project. I do not know what you have planned to do with this project. I collaborate in what I can. Best regards